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Looks like he took the 4 wire
good advice from Dick Collins AirFacts about doing multiple approaches after going missed
Edit: “there’s a history of serious accidents when additional approaches are shot after the first one was missed because of weather below minimums. Some argue that these additional approaches are good practice but history suggests that human nature results in going just a little lower each time. Unless some weather event makes you think it may have changed after the first missed approach best just go where the weather is better.”
The pilot sounded completely incompetent in his communications with ATC. Zero situational awareness, I can see how he got himself in this situation.
Do keep in mind that ATC audio starts an HOUR after he arrived in the area and tried four approaches. He knew he was on his last drips of fuel and had painted himself hard into the corner. He was desperate for a short approach into the ILS at JFK and never got there.
I, initally, admonished his comms also, but thought twice about the situation and realized I shouldn't be throwing stones.
He was starting to panic, which caused his comms to break down.
Check him out in the FAA National Airman Database. He has a 737 type rating....
Also, an expired medical by the looks of things?
Anything's possible, but I wouldn't put too much stock in that. I once applied for a job and they said I needed to get a medical again. Apparently they had looked me up in the database and it said my medical was three years out of date. It wasn't.
Can you link the ATC comms? Where did you find it?
heres the GIF of the flight path..tried to do the ILS 3 times then decided to divert to JFK.
From this it seems like he could barely hold the localizer, which says to me he had no business shooting approaches in LIFR conditions given his skill level. And for the record, I literally just got my IR ticket and I'm not even trying to say I'm way better or anything. I've never even flown in actual IMC and you sure as hell won't find me flying in the clouds at all until I have a chance to do it with an instructor.
Edit: after watching it again maybe what I'm seeing as chasing the localizer is actually just him being vectored to the final approach course, I don't know. He still had no business shooting that approach though. Or at the very least, not multiple times.
How in the hell does one get an IR ticket with no IMC time? Shame on that instructor.
You have never flown in Phoenix in the summer have you.
Icing risk maybe? I've been doing my IR training in MA since late January and most of that time has needed to be VFR weather with a view limiting device due to ice. Agree, not as ideal as the "real thing," but better than not working on IR at all.
This. If you do your IR training over the winter in a cold climate, icing makes actual IMC practice impossible until it warms up (which it's just now starting to do, but even then you need an ideal day for it).
Florida. Arizona. Cali.
Why in the world would he try to land at JFK after failing to land at farmingdale, there are a few airports to the west and north that seem more appropriate. The Hamptons is right there. He already seemed overwhelmed trying to land at FRG so I can’t imagine trying to land at JFK.
From a procedural standpoint, landing at JFK is not hard. In a 172, it just means that you're going to need to fly as fast as you can for as long as you can, and they're going to have to delay the jets behind you for a little bit.
From a last ditch emergency authority situation, the super long runways at JFK would actually be helpful in getting it down. Once you hit DH, if you are still in IMC and critical fuel, you could level off for a bit and then just slowly fly it down to ground level until you get a visual reference. You'd have a lot of questions to answer back at the FBO, but you'd live. They're incredibly lucky to be alive as is.
JFK has more runways with better approach lights (ALSF-2) which would enable you to find the runway better than the approach lights available at FRG
Was listening on Live ATC before the crash and they reported that they ran out of fuel followed by a radar contact lost. They were originally going to Farmingdale but diverted to Kennedy and made a few attempts there before running out. Incredibly lucky to get stuck in the power lines.
Picture from @EliLanger on Twitter.
He cracked the wings, had the gear caught in wires and didn't catch fire - which is FANTASTIC!
Looks like he didn't even touch the ground.
It seems like the wires acted as shock absorbers.
I hope they all made it with nothing more than a few bruises.
and didn't catch fire
no fuel to burn helps that a lot.
There's always a certain amount of unusable fuel that remains in the tanks even when you run out of fuel, and that still represents a fire hazard. But yes, in general the least fuel you have on board, the safer is a crash landing.
This is what 13R at JFK looked like earlier that day, and I kept getting alerts for extended dense fog advisories all day so I’m guessing it wasn’t any better that evening.
They were coming from Niagara Falls and were on a field IFR flight plan. Was the wx at Republic below minimums? Looks like they made at least a couple attempts there before diverting.
Last 2 METARS:
KFRG 150253Z 19009KT 1/4SM FG VV002 13/13 A2960 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 1/2 PRESFR SLP023 T01330133 58031
KFRG 150153Z 20008KT 1/4SM FG VV002 14/14 A2965 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 1/2 PRESFR SLP039 T01390139
Looks like weather below mins for ILS 14 at FRG which is what they were trying to go for.
I listened to live ATC when he first approached Farmingdale and ATC alerts the pilot that a prior landing aircraft reported breaking out of the clouds 100ft before minimums.
Is it legal in America to shoot an approach when the RVR is below the approach requirement? Because the vis in the METARs posted in this thread for a Cat1 is out.
Three approaches below minima and then running out of fuel. Appalling decision making. Lucky no one is dead.
Part 91 flights (such a this one) have no vis requirements for shooting the approach.
I've shot approaches below mins many times, it's great practice and isn't fundamentally dangerous, as long as you have somewhere you can go with better weather. I'm interested in learning more about the weather last night to see what other places were available and would've made better choices, along with learning about the alternate that would've been filed.
Weather was really bad all over LI yesterday. Very low ceilings and poor vis. I was actually practicing weather briefs with my instructor yesterday and JFK, KFRG, and KISP all had IFR conditions pretty much all day/night.
Basically all of them were forecasted at 1/4 - 1/8 SM, with VV002-4, Rain Fog and Mist with 200-800ft ceilings.
Yep, that's what I found in looking through the metars for LI and Connecticut. It was considerably better further west, though, something which should've been known to the pilot prior to departure, or, worst case, determined enroute after seeing how bad the LI airports were.
I've shot approaches below mins many times, it's great practice and isn't fundamentally dangerous
While I agree with this
have no vis requirements for shooting the approach.
This seems like it would encourage people to dig deep holes for themselves, no? Case in point, this guy above wrapped around telephone lines.
Not sure I'd agree that it encourages people, per se. It does give them enough rope to hang themselves but the same is true of VFR flying in 1 mile clear of clouds or 3sm and 1000ft ceilings.
The PIC for this flight should've had an alternate that was forecast to be better than 600-2, 800-2, or whatever was prescribed in the alternate minimums. Either they:
Looking at METARs from the time of the incident, KMMU and KSWF had considerably better weather. Any time your destination is at or near mins, you should have a plan about where you're going if it doesn't work out. This should've been known prior to takeoff, and then updated during flight. If the pilot didn't have on-board weather then he/she could've simply asked ATC, "where is the weather better?"
It's clear from looking at METARs from last night that Long Island and Connecticut were socked in...but airports to the west (CDW, MMU, ABE, etc) were in much better shape. That is not a difficult pattern to discern and then act upon.
Listening back to the archive, it sounds like the pilot asked for an airport with better ceilings but due to his accent, I do not think JFK tower understood what he was trying to ask for and thought he was asking to try a different runway maybe.
Yeah, and it looks like the flight there took 3h38min per FlightAware. Assuming roughly the same time on the way back, that’s a tight window in a 172 for an alternate and 45 minutes flying thereafter.
it puts the pressure on pilot responsibility. It does allow us to attempt an approach we wouldn't otherwise be allowed to do - my understanding is the WX equipment is quick to downgrade the situation but slow to upgrade - so conditions may actually be good enough.